"Whether you have more children is between you, your husband, and God."
This statement makes me nervous.*
It seems too pat, too easy to say that the solution to this whole family-size debate is simply personal choice guided by the Holy Spirit. That could be used as an excuse for a whole lot of things. The Bible doesn't directly address family size or birth control, but neither does it directly address abortion, living together unmarried, using drugs, homeschooling, and whether to buy underwear at Victoria's Secret. How do you decide what is personal choice and what is Christian doctrine?
It would be nice if you really could find an answer to each and every question in the Bible. However, the Bible wasn't written to individuals, but to churches, cities, and nations. Taken in that light, it does seem to leave a lot up to personal choice.
In all honesty, I hate it when God leaves things up to personal choice. Too much leeway disturbs me. How do you know if you're right and they're wrong if God didn't lay it out for everybody to see it the same way? I admit this isn't a healthy way to think, but it's part and parcel with my struggles in the area of family size. I gravitate to the teachers who say that God did lay out definite rules for everything. I want to believe the Personal Choice camp, but feel safer in the RuleKeepers Camp.
The answer must lie somewhere in the middle. Obviously your own family is your own concern. But Christians are all part of the Body of Christ, so how and what we decide affects others. That's why it's difficult for me to come to a conclusion and state it confidently. I don't want to make myself unhappy needlessly. But I don't want to abuse God's grace by declaring that whatever I want to do is between God and me, and no one has the right or authority to question me.
A side note: Churches should have the authority to question why Christians do what they do. I've known churches who do that, and the people there were spiritually healthy. By and large, though, our churches are so splintered that there's not much of an authoritative voice in any matter beyond the Ten Commandments. I think this situation leaves far too much up to "personal choice." But then, I would think that, wouldn't I?
* Partly because I always change that sentence to "among" instead of "between," then decide that you and your husband are one entity and God is the other, so there are only two parties, so "between" is correct after all.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
I'm sure I have more useful thoughts, but for now I'm just going to crack up over the between/among difficulty. :-D
ReplyDeleteToo much leeway disturbs me.
ReplyDelete*** That comment alone explains a lot about how you dissect this topic, and how others do as well, and why it's a topic you want discussed at all. Most people like leeway, whether it's how they plan their day, or their weekends, or their lives. Being you have a set menu for the week with a random change or two for meals, it's obvious you like structure - and that's a good thing. If having a child in an "unplanned" way changes the structure of having, and parenting, 4 children, it makes sense that you want definitive answers so you can plan ahead.
If the bible, or God, or some sign or scripture said "Sara must have 5 children", then you could plan for having 5 children. But without those clear cut signs, to have 4 children and then maybe a 5th one (only in fall, winter, or spring, not summer!) leaves a lot of unplanned structure. When you consider financial, educational, and overall and/or daily stressed of life, the unknown is VERY distressing. I can concur with the concept of too much leeway when you have no control over the ending outcome (not for the number of children, but in other areas of life), but then we don't have a crystal ball and we need to "go with the flow" and get through that flow with as much control and self confidence as we can.
I saw your kitchen today with 6 children (not counting my own) and it was stressful for you. You have the structure of 4 children in your stride, but even with a temporary addition to your lunch time schedule, it's a different mind set you (or anyone) has to have. The question really lies in whether or not you feel that's a challenge you want, or one you don't believe suits you and the rest of your family.
I can't comment on whether or not your (or anyone else's) decision lies between the couple and God, but if you believe that your beliefs and your strength, and who you are as a person, is part of who God made you to be, then I would think he gave you enough smarts to decide what is, and is not, comfortable for you as far as the number of children you have. I will say, I think you are a very smart and savvy person, and whatever decision you make will be the right one. But I don't believe that the womb is only available for "God" to make a decision of how often it's needed for procreation, the person who has to endure the stresses, and emotional and physical, and painful changes in the womb, has to have a say. And that say could be... "I'm done!".
Mollie
Actually, I'm pretty sure the Bible directly addresses fornication and abuse of mind altering substances.
ReplyDeleteIt is so easy to look for rules. It gives you the opportunity to measure yourself against others and feel superior.
Mollie - Thanks for thinking me smart and savvy. :) But I'm also selfish, and that's what I'd like to avoid having inform my decisions.
ReplyDeletefiddlrts - If you get the time, could you mention where the Bible addresses both those issues? I'm not challenging you -- I'd like to know. Most of what comes to my mind are verses like, "Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit," which is used to apply to practically ANYTHING; and verses in Deuteronomy about how if a man sleeps with a virgin he has to pay her dowry. Although there is the I Corinthians mention of going ahead and getting married if you can't remain celibate. And probably more that I'm not actively looking up because it's 8:30 and I have kids to feed. I think the Bible addresses that, anyway.
-- SJ
Being selfish isn't a bad thing. Who says it was? I think being a parent - or choosing to be one - is selfish in it's own way because you are choosing to create a part of you and choosing to care for that extention of yourself in the ways you (as a parent) see fit.
ReplyDeleteAnd being selfish doesn't have to be a bad thing. I am selfish when I finish all the chocolate and don't share with my child, but that's not a bad thing (for me anyway!).
Don't look at it as selfish for not wanting more children, look at it as if you didn't listen to your instincts, you wouldn't be setting a good example for the children you already have.
(yeah that's it!) =)
Mollie
No, I have to disagree. Selfishness can be small, but it's always putting yourself above others and God, and that's rarely good. Sometimes fairly harmless, but rarely a positive GOOD. Build a pattern of small selfishness, and you become a person of big selfishness. I don't want to be a that person. In my better mind and heart, I don't want my family to be arranged around myself and my desires.
ReplyDeleteAlso, becoming a parent has actually ripped away a lot of my selfish tendencies because you CAN'T be self-centered and give your children the nurture and example that they need.
Lastly, my children aren't an extension or part of me. They share my blood and some of my traits, but they are not ME, never were, and never will be. I hope to parent them so that they will grow up as themselves -- not so that they'll become what I think they should. The latter is a selfish way to parent.
The danger with things left up to personal choice is that we have grown accustomed to thinking of utterly autonomous personal choice as the norm . . . choices being only based on what works for *me*, disregarding the needs and claims of our parents, children, communities, churches. Without the horizontal balance of other hunan concerns, consulting God on the matter is all too likely to conclude that God wants *me* to be happy. Duty and service are exceedingly old-fashioned notions.
ReplyDeleteAnd the few exceptions to this tend to be scarily cultish families or churches, where it's about what works for *person in charge*.
What is lacking is mature decision making where we can make decisions in many areas, but genuinely take into consideration the concerns and claims of others. It's possible to refuse to have more children out of selfish desires; it's also possible to keep having children out of selfish desires. This decision might be between (or among!) us and God, but it must be predicated on seriously considering our duties to all of those around us.
In my better mind and heart, I don't want my family to be arranged around myself and my desires.
ReplyDelete*** See, to me, that comment shows you making personal choice (not to do that). It tends to lead directly back to the QF mindset, which I know you were debating.
Sometimes parents (not you, or anyone specific, this said in a general term) children need to be raised around the parents and the parents desires. But again, that is a choice. Whether you believe it is a personal choice or a religious choice can be debated.
I don't think negatively for your choosing to not want to be selfish, or to raise your family around that form of thinking, but I don't find it a selfish act to put yourself and your desires above children in an overall sense.
Yes, kids need to eat and not after you watch soap operas all day long. But to say "I have x amount of kids and I'm done" doesn't seem selfish. It seems logical if those are your thoughts, and how you really feel. You feel that way for a reason, to question that it's selfish (could be?) overthinking what you feel internally is appropriate for you.
I must disagree with you on the "children are not extentions of their parents" - I do believe that they are, and while they may be their own person, they are biologically and emotionally, and as a whole, an extention of 2 people. That's not to say they are, or should be a clone, but saying a child is an extention of their parent(s) was not meant in a bad way.
I like that my son is an extention of myself and his Dad. I like knowing he has part of each of us (the good, the bad, the ugly) and he can create those parts into who he is. I like that he shares both of us, and I have brought him up to appreciate the traits he shares of his Father's, and my own. He has more of his Dad's traits though, much to my shagrin, but then again he is a male so maybe it's better that way.
Plus, it my case, the only way I could have, and enjoy my son, was to have him within my "selfish" desires that revoolved around me and what I wanted. So selfishness depends on how you judge, or value, that specific notion. When one is selfish and it hurts other people, it is a bad thing. When it provides stability and a need for the greater good, it is not.
In my .02...
Mollie
Ok, I'll bite: Here is what I have found regarding these two areas.
ReplyDelete1. I consider alcohol and drugs to be essentially the same (leaving out the legality issue), at least as far as they are addressed or not by the Bible. As a disclosure, I do drink alcohol, and have never used a drug stronger than benadryl, which makes me loopy.
Overindulgence (abuse) of alcohol, and by analogy, any substance that alters the mind, is clearly immoral. Proverbs 23 deals with this at length. This is reiterated in the New Testament in Ephesians 5:18. On the other hand, wine is expressly approved for medicinal uses (I Timothy 5:23), for killing of pain (Proverbs 31:6). Wine is also mentioned with some degree of approval for the simple purpose of pleasure. Psalm 104:15 It is also used as a symbol of both the Lord's blessing and His wrath. Isaiah 55:1, and all through Isaiah for both.
2. You have cited the OT law on marriage after sex. In the cultural context, a defiled woman either married the man she slept with, or was thereafter tainted, and would never marry. Thus, we don't really have a cultural analogue. Note that Joseph wanted to let Mary off easily, but that under OT law, she was betrothed, and therefor would have been executed.
The best NT citation that I can come up with is the word used in 1 Cor. 6:18. A Greek scholar could further illuminate the actual word, which is used throughout the epistles, and is the root word in pornography. In the King James, this is rendered fornication, but is now translated as sexual immorality. In the context that it is used, it seems to apply to a variety of sexual practices outside the boundary of marriage. Adultery is generally a different word more specific to the betrayal of a spouse. I think a reasonable interpretation of this is that it is considered immoral to take sex out of its intended context within marriage. Hebrews 13:4 seems to reinforce the idea of the context of marriage being the determining factor.
I will note that this is my opinion on my own examination of the Bible, although it is shared by others. I am not claiming that mine is the only possible or reasonable interpretation, but I do think it flows logically, without undue stretching of the text.
In the cultural context, a defiled woman either married the man she slept with, or was thereafter tainted, and would never marry.
ReplyDelete*** I am glad I don't live under the OT laws. Just because I didn't marry the father of my child doesn't mean I shouldn't have the chance to find someone awesome and marry him. Of course this awesome man has yet to cross my path, but I hope he has my address!!! =)
Just a random thought.... I am so glad that we have a personal choice to decide to, or not to, have as many or as few children as we want to have, regardless of the reason (for/against).
ReplyDeleteI think that's one of the few freedoms people, and women in general, take for granted. I never grew up subjected to being told, by personal or govenment standards, how many children I am allowed or should have. To be able to exist in a time when it is okay to have it be a choice, is a special thing.
Again, a random thought that I felt compelled to share, for no other reason than I could. (thank you first amendment!)
Mollie
QoC - Your comment is like the distilled essence of my post. Thank you. :)
ReplyDeletefiddlrts - Thanks for "biting." I agree, your points flow logically. The texts, rather than making direct statements, still draw heavily from ordinary life and Christian tradition for interpretation... which doesn't bother me at all. What does bother me is when this sort of teaching comes from The Bible Alone Has All The Answers (Preferably In The King James Version) people.
-- SJ
Is there a difference between a healthy self-interest and selfishness? Just throwing that Q. out there. Don't know for certain, but suspect there might be.
ReplyDeleteLOL at the Victoria's Secret joke. :)
I think the safest place to be (in between the RuleKeepers and the Totally Autonomous) is walking in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5). That requires a living, ongoing relationship with God, which includes asking him direct questions; and exercising faith & expecting an answer.
Don't ask me to demonstrate this. LOL! I don't always do what I know.
Scriptural revelation exists to detail God's redemptive work throughout history and to show us what he is like (and why we should be like him). However, it's also living and active; thus, his Spirit, our Teacher, is the necessary ingredient for applying it rightly to our circumstances. We shouldn't just study the menu, we also "taste and see" that the Lord is good!
What is your sense, Sara, when you question the Lord on whether it's okay with Him for you to stop? You don't have to answer that publicly, obviously, but sometimes I get so caught up in reasoning things out that I forget to simply ask the Lord, "Is this okay? Can I put it to rest now?"
Then again, sometimes I avoid it because I know I might not like the answer! LOL!
While it seems nonsensical to consult the Lord on every last life decision, this one does seem to be a little more significant than "What shall I wear today?" and "Should I serve the peas, or the broccoli at supper?" If for no other reason than that it is bothering you, bringing it to him will please him, I think. I know He wants us to unburden ourselves to Him for the sake of *our* peace.
Another check I usually pay attention to is: what does hubby think about it? He's the God-ordained leader of our home, he's pretty astute when it comes to understanding scripture, he's much smarter than I, *and* he sincerely wants the Lord's will for us, so I trust the Lord to lead us through his decisions. Obviously, most husbands want to be considerate and please their wives and do what's best for them as well. But if my husband had a very strong sense from the Lord that was different from mine, despite all my reasoning, desire, and counsel...I would take heed. Because that usually doesn't happen! LOL! (If neither of us has any clue what to do, we go back to the previous step & ask God, separately & together.)
It also helps to have my husband lay hands on me and pray for me when I am worrying excessively over something. If your husband is at peace with this, then maybe he can pray for the Lord to impart that peace to you as well!
I hope this made some sense...thanks for letting me ramble in your space.
Susannah,
ReplyDeleteYour comment brought up the missing ingredient, which I've realized after thinking through all this: our purpose as Christians isn't to find out what God requires and doesn't require, but to *know God.* He has a messy way of dealing with His people: He doesn't set out a lot of clear rules, but wants us to talk with Him and interact with Him.
Of course I hesitate to say that we "find out what He wants for us," because so many people manage to hear very destructive things from "God." But that's part of God's messiness and the consequence of sinful humans.
I think I've been looking at this whole question as a way of figuring out the right answer and doing it. When now I think it's more of an opportunity to talk to God and know Him through it.
As to my husband, he'd be happy with another child, but doesn't have a driving desire for one. That is, he's happy with four and would be happy with more -- but he's comfortable with the fact that I don't want more right now.
Talking to God about this... that's a very confused feeling. Maybe I'm afraid I won't like His answer, or maybe I just can't HEAR any other answer from Him except "you can't ever declare you are Done." It's been easier to blog about it than pray about it.
-- SJ
Bob at OneCosmos had a really good post today, relating to this.
ReplyDeleteNow let me offer a disclaimer...he's really more into mysticism than I am comfortable with and he dances on the edge of orthodoxy sometimes, IMO. But I find more at this blog to agree with than the reverse. And on this point, he's spot on, I believe.
http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-to-know-when-god-is-speaking-to-you.html